Today's venue managers' meeting at Phoenix Artist Club, Soho, London, launches the first London Festival Fringe (LFF) to venue managers and media.

We give here an account of the whole meeting. Where possible the words are those used by the speakers, with some speeches summarised (often the summary is in brackets) and abbreviated. Where this has been done, the intention has been to be fair to the point of view expressed and we will accept corrections (to reviews@fringereport.com)

London Festival Fringe (LFF) is directed by Greg Tallent. Present are about 32 people from venue management, producers, media.

Those present include (alpha order): Ed Bartlam (co-director, Underbelly). Holly Burford (New Players Theatre). Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern). Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern). Daryl Folkard (LFF). John Goodman (New Players Theatre). Gene David Kirk (Jermyn Street Theatre). Mags Korzcak (LFF). Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre). Sarah Loader (freelance producer). Deirdre Malynn (Cochrane Theatre). Sofie Mason (director, OffWestEnd.com). Tim McArthur Above The Stag. Paul Oxley (freeholder, Royal Vauxhall Tavern). Holly Payton (director, World Festival Network). Sonja Rein (producer, In Her Own Right Productions). Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre). Victoria Silverman (LFF). Alexandra Smith (Canal Café Theatre). Stephen Spence (Equity). Adam Spreadbury-Maher (Cock Tavern). Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire). Emma Taylor (artistic director, Canal Café Theatre). Chris Timms (director, Remote Goat). Martin Witts (director, Leicester Square Theatre).

Greg Tallent (Director, LFF): Can I start this get-together. I'd like to thank Maurice Huggett and Tom who run this venue. Every Tuesday fortnight we are here with the London Fringe Club (www.londonfestivalfringe.com). Today is to talk about what's going on with LFF, and to welcome so many people. Most of you have had an email with press information. I want you to talk about this to yourselves - you are going to make this happen. I want to know what we can do that will help make this happen year after year in August. More meetings with venue managers are scheduled. You are the decision-makers. You are the people making this happen. One of the things that I hear about is that London is too big. I think that's the only reason I need to address. London has the greatest number of artists, performers, press, and tourists. It all happens here. I don't think that it is too big. There are ways to pull it together. Soho, Westminster and other areas form a natural centre. But we want venues all over London - Notting Hill Gate, Shoreditch, London Bridge and all other parts. We want to bring in all venues outside the central area. To make them as important - and we can. To bring in venues such as The Almeida, The Gate, and pub and fringe venues. Nowadays, people are very well connected - through technologies that are around: Twitter, Facebook, phone, online. We can get that message out. You are the London Festival Fringe, and together we are doing it. We want theatres outside the centre to keep their own character - their own programming, in their own way. We can come together. The other is Oyster. Yesterday it was announced that all transport in London is under the Oyster Card. Train has now been added to tube, bus, national and local rail, boat, tram. It's another reason that we can pull it all together. We can make it one big Festival Fringe event that London can be proud of. If you take a head count of all the venues, mainstream and fringe, pubs, artists - there are far more than anywhere else in the world. Artists have venues on their doorstep. We, London, are the major art festival in the world. We should tell people. London Festival Fringe is to tell that to people all over the world. Everything is set up. The website (www.londonfestivalfringe.com) is working. Ticketing is in place. Proposals can go on the site now. There's not much more to do on the technical and structural side. That leaves us free for 8 months promoting you - to the press, to the public. I think we can do it well. A press release went out yesterday. I was rung by 4 papers including The Times, Evening Standard, a freelancer who is giving it to The Scotsman; I spoke to The Scotsman today; Time Out; The Stage yesterday. I want all of us to build on that. In the sheets you have there's a photocopy of The Times article on page 19. The Evening Standard has one too. BBC London are here today. Phil Nichol was brought in to this venue to be interviewed - I think they were looking for comments, a leading comedian's opinion. It's healthy they should get both points of view. The Scotsman will have their views on it. We have our views on it. That will be great. I've talked to a few people together; Ed Vaizey, Claire Fox. The Awards. We awarded five London Fringe Awards in July 2009 [at The London Bridge Festival 2009 which Greg Tallent directed]. They went down well and attracted attention. We'll be running awards at London Festival Fringe 2010 with two added. A new Jazz Award - there is a lot of jazz in London. A Graduate Theatre Award. That is for drama students all over the UK. I think that will be attractive to the press. These are sort of things we are doing to get you written about as a whole. We're talking to Leicester Square management to get a performance street for people to perform. Leicester Square has 10,000 people per hour - the highest footfall in Europe. That's the kind of thing we are talking about. We'll get a street, I hope. We are also hoping to get a display board. We will get reviewers reviewing the shows. I'd like to tell you why I want to do this. I love the art that is going on in London. I'd like to end with two quotes. Rosa worked with us on London Bridge Festival, she's Italian. She said: 'We must not be intimidated by the incognito of what's next'. The other is Bart Simpson writing on his blackboard 'I will not spin the turtle'. He must have spun the total a few times.

Adam Spreadbury-Maher (Cock Tavern): Nica Burns says in The Times article - congratulations - about the geography of London. You can't walk from Kilburn to Barnes. For it being seen as a banner is there an option to talk to Transport For London (TFL) to do a Zones 1 & 2 card for the Fringe?

Greg Tallent (GT): Glad you mentioned that. We've approached Boris [Boris Johnson, Mayor of London]. We asked if we can call the London Festival Fringe Awards 'The Borises'. It got to Boris. The message came back 'We'd rather you didn't, it might confuse people'. We're working on that. Yes, we can now go to the GLA [Greater London Authority, London overall governing body] - they know us. I don't know if they will, but we can ask. People will always have their own identity in the festival. I think that's a strong point. 20th Century Theatre for example. For each of you, it's your theatre. It's great to have that different character. Make that part of the programming. You'll get more people coming to your theatre.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): If I've got a show and could go to Edinburgh, the world's highest profile, spend money, get accommodation, get a theatre, I know I'm going to play to people who are going to see me. What's going to be more important about LFF?

GT: I think it's going to be your call. We will put on a good show.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): What's going to get more than putting on a show in August in London in any case?

GT: The big reason is that the promotion we do for you now lasts after the event. To people who live and work near your theatres. They'll remember you after August and continue. We're talking about people who do graduate shows, not the headliners - they fight for audiences. When they leave Edinburgh they start all over again with promotion.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): I have two questions. First, have you approached international promoters? The higher capacity acts go to Edinburgh - it's a trade fair. Second, I'm confused how you connect venues with promoters? Pricing? Identity? Combatting the fact that theatre only happens between 2 and 5 in Edinburgh. How will you connect them to us? Every venue is different in identity.

GT: Taking the second one first. A promoter or performer will put the show online using a simple form giving eg technical requirements and the background to the company. That will circulate to all venues and promoters. We think for now that if we give out your numbers you'll be inundated. You tell us what you want. If you want that we'll do it. We're asking you to do a bit more than normal - back-to-back shows. On the first point. You know, I think that trade show aspect will build up over time. People will begin to see how they can use it. You are the professionals. You can work out how you can use it.

Deirdre Malynn (Cochrane Theatre): I still don't understand what it is. Marketing. You're doing all the work. What is its unique selling point? It has to be different from Edinburgh. To reflect the city. I don't get what the heart of the show is?

GT: The heart of the show is London.

Deirdre Malynn (Cochrane Theatre): We get all that. We sell into this market all the time. What? How much?

GT: We don't enter into the deal with the show, as at Edinburgh. We do the marketing. We want to pitch this to the press as a show. It would be nice if you can do that. Venues that will take you on - the poor, the hungry. We charge programme entry for the printed programme, it'll be £100 or £200. The cost? We're not going to charge you, the venue, anything.

Deirdre Malynn (Cochrane Theatre): Seems very funny.

GT: It's working. When it stops working it will be time to change it. The message to the punter is that they've got art, entertainment. When they're thinking what they're doing weekdays, weekends. There could be a season ticket to see as many shows as possible. Great art and entertainment. To the professional the point is we are promoting you to an audience that will come back, doesn't disappear - an audience lasting the whole year.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): There's got to be something in it, after all we're all here. It doesn't sound like it's enough. There must be a way of promoting it to us. £200? Why not put it in the Hackney Gazette?

GT: London Festival Fringe is the banner headline. It's a big show, something people will see over and over again. If you all come together, you'll make it a big event.

Holly Payton (director, World Festival Network; former manager, Brighton Festival Fringe). A kind of waterfall arrives with it. We had a similar situation at Brighton. Venues that were successful all year round in Brighton. A Fringe brochure is around 8 to 10 weeks, so it's around for much longer than press, and you're part of a big event. It lets things out: if you're a performer from outside who doesn't know how to get involved in venues, this is a clear way in. It's a lot more than just getting venues in.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): Four USPs [unique selling points] we're not getting. The access is much larger with a London audience but if at an affordable cost. What's the appeal for receiving houses [theatres which rent themselves out]? For producing houses [theatres which produce their own shows]? For companies? What are the concretes if we start doing it? If you do weekly season tickets, how do we do it? Surcharges? These are things I would need more clarity on.

GT: Lots of questions. Everything we do is on the website (www.londonfestivalfringe.com). All those questions will be answered. They will be on the website. It's the same model as the Edinburgh Fringe.

Alexandra Smith (Canal Café Theatre): You're not working on the Edinburgh model. A lot of venues there are temporary. That model doesn't traslate.

GT: I mean the way it works. Website, ticketing, catalogue, marketing. Whether in a different city or your own theatre, it's the same. We put shows on.

Alexandra Smith (Canal Café Theatre): Ticketing is very different. With permanent spaces, venues, it's in place. It is more complex disrupting the system.

GT: We will include what you want us to include over and above what you do. For some, it will be things they don't do now - eg late night shows, early shows. It will be how people want it to be. Maybe.

Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre): If the Fringe is to be a grand festival, why is it on at the same time as Edinburgh?

GT: It's the best time for London. There's lots of art and performance in August.

Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre): Are you not defeating it?

GT: There's lots more in August in London, and lots more people coming. In terms of people going to the Fringe and going to Edinburgh.

Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre): We have a huge audience in London in August. Let's not forget people who don't go to Edinburgh. We're giving them that stage to do it - performers and audiences. I think they should have that. Isn't it better to establish it at another time and move to August?

GT: I don't think so. We have to set out clearly what we want to be from the word go. Develop that over the years.

Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre): It's like setting up a carnival. You do it at a different time from the Notting Hill Carnival.

Emma Taylor (artistic director, Canal Café Theatre): One of the reasons is press. With so many arts desks reducing in size, this is two arts festivals going head to head.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): To go to Brighton [in May], you've got say a year-and-a-half's preparation. And you're going on to Edinburgh Fringe. I will take my maintenance weeks in August. The audience is outside, living on the South Bank with free entertainment. I have to admit that's a key audience - Edinburgh. Everyone's audiences in London drop off. To get away from the hotness.

GT: I walk outside and see thousands of people who don't go to Edinburgh. I want to get them in. We have people in London in August to do shows, to build that up, establish London Festival Fringe.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): I have a similar point. We programmed a festival in August/July [Royal Vauxhall Tavern Hot August Fringe 2009]. Our audience figures were amazing. It could be done.

Holly Payton (director, World Festival Network): Producers and promoters don't necessarily go for 3 weeks to Edinburgh, and they fly in to London anyhow.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): They'll have to budget for that. They'll have to know in advance.

GT: It's on the radio BBC London tomorrow morning. Time Out will do an article. The press is putting it out. You're right Laura you'll have to put that out to the press. [He introduces the press people in the room]. There are a lot of people working on this. Laura, you're right we need to get out to more and more people. I know very clearly what we are doing. We did it once already [London Bridge Festival 2009]. It worked fine. It will be a different event, a London event.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): With Edinburgh there is a centre. London has hugeness. For LFF as an umbrella organisation I do think it might need a central spoke to it. I think it needs a focal point.

GT: I agree. A focal point, a place to walk around. We hope to get venue boards on. Reviews are very important. We need to have those. We're working on that as well.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire):

If you're in Edinburgh you can go to the Pleasance and on Assembly. In London you can't.

GT: If you're a reviewer you won't want to. It's a big place. There are lots of reviewers.

Victoria Silverman (LFF): Edinburgh is a trade show. It would be brilliant if a London arts festival encapsulated everyone. It's the cultural heart, with different audiences. It's not just for people with degrees in literature or art.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): It's very hard getting audiences in August. But if you had methods, routes, that would increase audience - marketing for everyone in this room - to that 500,000 footfall in Leicester Square to go to Barking - that would be great.

GT: There's no reason why not to do two shows - Edinburgh and London at the same time. Why not get two audiences? It's a trip on a train.

GT: We're looking for a venue for the Graduate Theatre Award. We'd love one of you to say that. We can get that to the press. Please see Sarah.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): Does anyone normally programme in August? [several yesses]

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): We went into whole new areas of programming [with the Hot August Fringe 2009 at the Royal Vauxhall Tavern]. It was very successful and opened up whole new audiences for us.

Paul Oxley (freeholder, Royal Vauxhall Tavern): Tourists coming into London are looking for something to do. They're not necessarily interested in your venue. But something called London Festival Fringe - under that umbrella you can promote under your genre. Eg ours is avant-garde gay. A more powerful brand than ours, with our brand under it. It's very little expense, an umbrella, and promotion.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): Fair enough, good point.

Anonymous Man: If you could provide us all with free air conditioning.

Tim McArthur Above The Stag: It would be very good to get SOLT [Society of London Theatres] to put flyers in their foyers.

Paul Oxley (freeholder, Royal Vauxhall Tavern): Two points. Geography: one thing could be a geographical split of style: eg comedy, bands. Why London not Edinburgh for performers?: Yes, performers do do both - we had them [at Hot August Fringe 2009] before and after Edinburgh. A lot of people are resting from Edinburgh. They slept in a bath last year. And they live here. In London their new work doesn't cost them anything really.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): (It's good) if we're not trying to be Edinburgh. Central London, Soho, Covent Garden yes. But if we can get all 32 London boroughs. I do want to go over to Croydon.

Mags Korzcak (LFF): I'm from Romford [Essex]. There are people who don't normally go to the theatre. We have the Queens Theatre - they'd jump at the chance. We could go to a theatre locally, not having to go all the way in. So, not just for tourists.

GT: You kind of wonder why we haven't had this before. We've got it all here. Last reason: it's going to be so easy to do it here. It going to be easy to do it here.

Deirdre Malynn (Cochrane Theatre): I think you're being a bit disingenuous. I think there is a good idea here. I just don't know what it is yet.

GT: I meant the whole thing of putting it on, running it, going home afterwards. I think a very smart reason is ().

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): London fringe runs all year round and Time Out's the guide. Why not (focus on points including) audience affordibility, being a stepping stone, being different. In some ways that is slightly disappointing.

GT: I've tried to give you lots of views. I've tried to give you different reasons.

Gene David Kirk (Jermyn Street Theatre): (this way) We go for 12 months. We should get together for 11 months Within my theatre August is the lowest month. It's when I do general repairs. It's hot, needs air conditioning. August is an important point for repairs.

GT: I understand your concerns. August is the best time in London.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): You're doubling the effort in August. Why fight when we can give them (another time)?

GT: Why not August?

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): Why not preempt (Edinburgh) in July?

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): Or September?

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): If you want to steal thunder. If we want (it to be big).

GT: It will be a bigger event in August, in the long run.

Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre): Do you see it as bigger than Edinburgh in 2010?

GT: It will be what it will be. But it will grow.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): There is so much free stuff. In 2012 [The London Olympics] it will be littered with free stuff. Even the Olympic Cultural Office (will be starting in) May, June, because of the official Olympic programme in August. I think this could be a better time for all of us. For us, in May or September. August may be suicide.

Tim McArthur (Above The Stag): Have you spoken with Camden Fringe? They do it in August. How will they feel?

GT: We will speak to them. You know, it is not just about the stuff in this room. It is bigger than that. We want to include visual art, free stuff, music. This is a business meeting for theatre managers. It is bigger than this. It is a big event, that is why we want it in August. I am talking to the BFI [British Film Institute] for a feature film competition which we would run. 140 feature films are made per year in the UK. The winner could be shown in the London Film Festival in October. It is not just about theatre. It is bigger than that.

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): Are you talking about a London festival and a fringe? Now film? That is not fringe.

GT: London Festival Fringe. It is both.

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): We as fringe theatre are part of it. We are it. What is the thing?

GT: Whatever thing people do under that banner. A small thing, a big thing. A soapbox on The Embankment [road alongside River Thames]. Large things are equally welcome. In some ways it is forcing people to make a decision between London and Edinburgh. We will grow this. The contribution we all make will do this.

Gus Robertson (20th Century Theatre): Better to make it something smaller?

GT: With the London Bridge Festival 2009 we had 21 teams for a 48-hour film festival. The final awards at the Roxy were packed. I do not want to leave them out.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): What about Raindance [Film Festival]?

GT: We are talking to them.

Emma Taylor (artistic director, Canal Café Theatre): Do you know that Johnnie Oddball does the 48-hour film challenge?

GT: He is in London Fringe, with the County Hall venue.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): What are the figures for Leicester Square in August?

GT: £18 million is being spent on the redevelopment. There are 10,000 people per hour. People go to Edinburgh. 50%

Alexandra Smith (Canal Café Theatre): I do not think they are going to stop going.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): If it is in August, you can primarily market to an overseas audience. September would be more Londoners.

Mags Korzcak (LFF): Lots of foreign cities close down in August, unlike London. There are more people coming to London in August.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): How come all these years everyone expects audiences in August? London Theatres are experts at producing.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): Tourists are drawn to the West End. I assume pitching at them (to make London Fringe) as prominent as Mamma Mia.

GT: We have more universities here than any other countries. The students have no money. August is a great month for them.

Deirdre Malynn (Cochrane Theatre): I really strongly disagree. They have gone in August. Fees are so expensive, they need to work. There are none here other than research students.

GT: I work in a university. They get work. People cannot get jobs. There are enough people in London in August to do all the things we are coming together to do.

Gene David Kirk (Jermyn Street Theatre): The Green Man Festival [folk and music festival held annually in August]. The biggest failing of the New York Festival is that it does not have a central core. It could just be a lot of people in a very thick book.

GT: These are the shows, the venues. The easiest thing in the world is to see a show. I think London has that quality. It is amazing. Why don't we show that to people?

Adam Spreadbury-Maher (Cock Tavern): In August last year I sold out a fringe venue for the whole of August: The White Bear. This year, The Cock sold 70 percent in August. I think it is a traditional myth, and I have not got a huge marketing budget. Two of my strongest months have been August and August.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): We had a great August.

Victoria Silverman (LFF): People who have got kids (are a key audience in August). It is like the London Film Festival: great film in loads of different venues across London. It is the same: celebrating what we do.

GT: Children are a great audience. Parents being hassled. They pay your venues.

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): It is a problem programming. The implication is to block out three weeks of programming. There is no knowledge of how good (the acts) will be. If I was a young theatre maker, and Edinburgh is a great show, I would go to Edinburgh. If I have blocked off three weeks and get a load of rubbish, what do I do?

GT: London Festival Fringe exists already. It is in the press. Whatever programming you put on: you can take your route or our route. (It is up to you) if you decide to block it.

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): If we are going to feel an important part of it. I am terrified at blocking off three weeks.

Holly Payton (director, World Festival Network): With Fringe programming, you still decide what you are getting. You pick

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): If anyone is any good, they will go to Edinburgh.

Holly Payton (director, World Festival Network): I ran a venue in Edinburgh for a few years [Roman Eagle Lodge]. You get a massive influx and you pick. You can choose to go and see them.

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): At some stage you have to make a decision.

Holly Payton (director, World Festival Network): You do not have to go via the Fringe.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): We are now setting up a festival. Would we be constrained to take from your website?

Paul Oxley (freeholder, Royal Vauxhall Tavern): We would define what we are looking for, and we would look at anything on the website.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): It is a build, isn't it? In 2010 do what you are doing.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): If they can bypass paying £10, why pay £10? Most of the stuff that comes to us is something we have a relationship with. Why would I pay in when I can still put on anything?

GT: I want to sell it to you. I think we are doing a great thing. The momentum is building up. Grow something. Make it a big thing. I know that is hype, but working on that basis, it is for reasons to do with careers, marketing, it is not to do with money. Something is going on. We have got 8 months. It will build. Watch this space.

Ben Cooper (creative producer, Cock Tavern): I have a suspicion that you do not appreciate the amount of investment. I am happy to block off programming in August to be part of London Festival Fringe for 3 weeks in August.

GT: When we feature your venue, and say this venue is developing its programming for London Festival Fringe, and these are the people coming to it. We want stories, to follow your story. Because there is a story in this. We want to give them other stories too. Tell them about you. We want your story. That is a great story. And it will make all of us seen.

Paul Oxley (freeholder, Royal Vauxhall Tavern): Programming what you are going to anyway.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): But logo, checking your proofs of catalogues. What is going to make it seem like an investment? What are the substantatives? I do that with Camden [Fringe]. Ticket prices? There is only so much I can add on top of it. I cannot see the benefit. I can see what you want it to be.

GT: What do you want from me?

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): Detail. What size print run for the brochure?

GT: It will be enough to cover most venues.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): We need it across all the London Boroughs. If my theatre gives you £200.

Laura Kriefman (creative producer, Tristan Bates Theatre): The Big Dance [London dance event] prints 150,000. It sets up 5 hubs.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): With the last festival [London Bridge Festival 2009], are there any figures or financial figures from the venues?

GT: Belushis filled up every night, the main comedy venue.

Catia Ciarico (Royal Vauxhall Tavern): It would be useful to have those figures. How much audiences increased.

GT: I cannot give you those figures. These are details that you rightly ask.

Frank Sweeney (Hackney Empire): If there was a way of funding the brochure. That would lower the cost through advertising, and it would be free to go in the brochure. That would be good to bring in.

GT: Thank you for coming.

END

John Park

at London Festival Fringe Venue Managers' Meeting, Tuesday 24 November 2009, The Phoenix Artist Club, 1 Phoenix Street, London, WC1H 0DT, approx 15:00 - 18:00 pm

Corrections Please email any corrections to reviews@fringereport.com

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